Tag: desire

This is a conversation that Plato recorded between Socrates and Phaedrus.  Though it dwells mostly on love, it does delve in to the art of rhetoric.  In regards to love, they discuss the soul, madness, and divinity.  The story is broken up in to three speeches. 

The first speech, given through Phaedrus, states that it is better to give your attentions (sexual relations) to a non-lover (aka, someone you are not in love with that you extract physical pleasure from).  The reasoning is that jealousy will never be a factor, and that you are acting with cool and cold logic, and that if you were to give your attentions to a person ‘sick with the madness of love’ that irrationality may occur.

The second speech is the first response by Socrates.  Socrates states that human beings have two inherent needs – first, their desire for pleasure and second, their desire to exercise sound judgment in order to obtain happiness.   Seeking purely pleasure is something seen as derived from madness while utilizing one’s judgment is a sign of being ‘right in the mind.’  When you have fallen in to the madness, you no longer are looking out for the best in your lover.  You will shape and form them to your needs as you need them and you will have them fulfill roles that perhaps they were not meant to step in to.  A sound minded person would never betray their non-lover.  In essence, Socrates is in a way agreeing with the first speech but in a more coherent and examined manner.

The final speech, given by Socrates, in a response to both the speeches, goes in the complete opposite direction and is, perhaps, the most important dialogue in all of this slim volume.  He talks on several things: madness, the soul, madness in the context of love, and then finally a discourse on rhetoric.  First he states that madness is a gift from the gods and that madness can be a good thing.  He then speaks on the soul and how it is in a state of motion and thus is immortal.  After, he speaks on the madness induced by love.  He explains that if excessive physical contact can be supressed and the company can still be enjoyed that then both self control and madness can be present and in balance in a beautiful relationship.  “A lover’s friendship is divine, Socrates concludes, while that of a non-lover offers only cheap, human dividends, and tosses the soul about on earth”  Finally, he speaks on the art of rhetoric, though i will not go on to explain this part of the logoi because I take less interest in it.

I think this story is a very unique approach to the ailment of love.  Clearly this story is revolving around Eros, the type of love that is mainly grounded in the romantic relationship between two people.  However, towards the end, I believe Socrates is arguing for a form of Philos (not Agape, mind you), intimate and physical philos.  (for the rationality of a person is still in place.  I believe once you transcend eros and philos and step in to agape with a person, then all things become irrational for it is an irrational emotion in many many ways.  though, it is also perhaps one of the most beautiful.)

Excerpts:
First speech

“those in love repent of whatever services tehy do at the point they cease from their desires; for the others [non-lovers], there is no time appropriate for repentence.  For it is not under compulsion but ta their choosing… that they render their services.” – p 7

“…whereas those not in love, because they are in control of themsleves, will choose what is best rather than to have people think highly of them.” – p 8

“Moreover, many of those in love desire a person’s body before they know his ways and before they have experience the other aspects belonging to him, so that it is unclear to them if they will still want to be friends with him when they cease to desire him…” – p 9

“…judgment is weakened as a result of their desire.” – p 9

“…the man in love is more sick than the man not in love…” – p 13

Second Speech:

“…in each of us there are two kinds of thing which rule and lead us, which we follow wherever they may lead, the one an inborn desire for pleasures, the other an aquired judgment that aims at the best.” – p 15

“..the man who is ruled by desire and enslaved to pleasure will make the one he loves as pleasing to himself as possible.” – p 17

Third Spech

“…but as it is, the greatest of goods come to us through madness.” – p 23

“All soul is immortal. For that which is always in movement is immortal; that which moves something else, and is moved by something else, in ceasing movement ceases from living.  So, only that which moves itself, because it does not abandon itself, never stops moving.” – p 25

“…one must be bold enough to say what is true, especially when speaking about truth.” – p 27

“For the soul that has never seen the truth shall not enter this shape of ours.” – p 29

Pieces of the speech on the Art of Rhetoric

“Well then, for things that are going to be said well, and beautifully, mustn’t there be knowledge in the mind of the speaker of the truth about whatever he means to speak of?” -p 42

“unless he engaged in philosophy sufficiently well, neither will he ever be a sufficiently good speaker about anything.” – 43

“Does deception occur more in the case of things that are widely different or in those that differ little?” -p 45

“Until a person knows the truth about each of the things about which he speaks or writes, and becomes capable of defining the whole by itself, and, having defined it, knows how to cut it up again acccording to its forms until it can no longer be cut; and until he has reached an understanding of the nature of soul along hte same lines, discovering the form of speech that fits each nature, and so arranges and orders what he says, offering a complex soul complex speeches containing all the modes, and simple speeches to a simple soul: not until then will he be capable of pursuing the making of speeches as a whole in a scientific way (persuasive way.).” – p 65